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A Conversation with Brad Schoenfeld, PhD on Women's Research

A Conversation with Brad Schoenfeld, PhD on Women's Research

Season 2, Episode 1

In our first episode of season 2, join us for an in-depth conversation about women-specific training research and resistance training. The Peach Pit team talks with Brad Schoenfeld, a professor of exercise science at Lehman College in New York. Brad serves as the graduate director of the Human Performance and Fitness program. They discuss various studies, training methods, and common myths surrounding women and resistance training. Brad also shares his takeaways from a 2021 study on partial ROM knee extensions with solely female subjects.

Jenn and Meredith share how they train themselves and clients to use different ranges of motion and the benefits of exploring these methods. They also share their observations on the effects of single versus joint exercise on muscle hypertrophy.

Topics discussed:

  • Hypertrophy
  • “The Bulk Myth”: resistance training
  • Women-specific training research
  • Training around menstrual cycles
  • Partial ROM vs. Full ROM
  • Single vs. multi-joint exercise
  • Promoting partial ROM for safety
  • Defining stretching and eccentric, in hypertrophy literature
  • Jenn and Meredith’s 90’s Fix

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music composed by Darren O'Brien of Activity Partners

Episode production by Truth Work Media

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Speaker 1: (00:01)
Welcome to the peach pit fitness podcast. Part of the think fit, be fit podcast network, where we put the power of dynamic fitness back in your hands. One mental rep at a time effective thinking for potent fitness. Welcome to the peach pit.

Jennifer: (00:19)
Hey, hello, peach Pit fans. We are back from a little break. Hello, Meredith.

Meredith: (00:24)
Hi Jenn. How are you?

Jennifer: (00:26)
Fabulous. And so glad to see you and welcome a phenomenal guest today. Brad Shoenfeld PhD in exercise science. Uh, welcome to Peach Pit fitness.

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (00:39)
Thank you

Jennifer: (00:40)
For having that. My absolute pleasure. So I'll get right to it. Uh, we have a two part episode as usual, and this first part is, you know, a conversation really more about me Meredith picking your brain about so much of the work that you've done, and it's all fascinating to us. So buckle up guys. Let's go. so Brad, your name and hypertrophy are synonymous to pretty much most of my sphere of exercise and fitness, and I just really wanna hear it from you. Like I have my reasons, but why is this a worthy focus of study?

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (01:25)
Um, well, I, I mean, we could take up the whole half hour just discussing that, but, um, I, I think the short course is that first of all, hypertrophy is something that, um, many, if not the majority of people who are coming to personal trainers are aspiring to, uh, when I was a personal trainer, the vast majority of my clientele, uh, they were not looking to take an, uh, second off their sprint time or to jump a, an inch higher, which was the majority of strength and conditioning research. They were looking to look great naked, which didn't have to be my website. And, um, specifically it was increasing muscle size was a primary consideration. I was a, uh, former body builder and have over the years, worked with many high level body builders. So I mean, it's something that is, uh, is of interest to people and who will also say that muscle, there's a correlation between, uh, hypertrophy and strength. So increasing hypertrophy can lead to greater strength. Muscle is an endocrine organ. It, it secretes various, uh, substances that are, have positive benefits on health. And I could go on and on, but the other thing is I just, uh, that's my focus. So I do what I, I re research what I like. So that's how I ended up

Jennifer: (02:40)
Here. I just wanted to highlight hypertrophy is one of the causes of look good naked.

Meredith: (02:45)
not everybody gets that though. And I'm, I'm curious to ask you questions about that just, but Jen continue nakedness. No, well, oh gosh. Well, no, no, not specifically that, but yes. Okay. Sorry. oh, you mean, uh, our, our perception of hypo. Yes. And like how that for some people could be scary specifically when you're working with, and I don't mean to generalize, but like oftentimes women are afraid of the word even like building, you know, not all women, of course. And certainly this couldn't, uh, be an, an issue for men too, although I don't see it as much there, but, um, just in a lot of your studies, like the one that we were gonna maybe speak on with, um, the full range of motion versus partial range of motion training, you used all female subjects. And I was curious if you have, like, what kind of intake you have questionnaires, you ask them to get an understanding of their psychological, their mindset coming into a program like that or into a study, like the one that you did

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (03:49)
Well, I mean that, that's not a focus, that's not an outcome of the studies that, that certainly that study you're referring to. And often not really in the focus of my research, I don't recall if we've done any, uh, psychological, uh, testing in that realm on women. But I, I will, I think more importantly, or just as importantly, to answer your question, that is one of the reasons why it's been very difficult to do hypertrophy research in women because, you know, we have a flyer that's ended out gain muscle and, women are like, I wanna get, I wanna lose fat, you know, get right. So when I say I'm overgeneralizing now, but it's, I've tried to carry out studies doing my best now to try to integrate because it's a very understudied population. The vast majority of studies in hypertrophy are in men.

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (04:34)
And a lot of it has to do with the difficulty in getting, uh, samples. And I know I'll talk like when I put my stuff that online women will say, oh, I would volunteer at a well, I mean, I'm at a school and we can only recruit from if they're in California or in Nebraska, right. I'm not gonna be able to have them in New York in this study. So, uh, I, I can just tell you, it is difficult to study or referring to as carried out in Brazil. And, uh, they were able to, my colleagues were able to recruit a sufficient sample, which was good, but,, it is a difficult chore. And one of my life's a substantial part of my life's work is to dispel the myth that women are gonna look too bulky from resistance training and that adding muscle, it just doesn't happen. You know, people or women will look at bodybuilders, female bodybuilders and magazines or something, and think that's what they're gonna look like. And, you know, besides the fact that they have elite genetics, the, these women, they're also generally taking, certain substances that enhance that ability. So again, women, uh, the addition of resistance training will only help women's physiques and improve, generally improve their self-esteem. And, uh, I've been a huge champion of that and trying to instill that or debunk the myth and instill the importance of it in, in society.

Jennifer: (05:57)
Mm well, thank you. And yes, Jen and I love that yeah, that was one of our, uh, discussion points between the two of us and why it was, you know, a, just a joy to be able to like, gather some thoughts and, and get to be in this room with you. Right. What does like the potential future look like for women specific training research

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (06:22)
Research? Yeah, I think the future looks like we need to carry out more studies in women. Mm-hmm so when you say, what does it look like? As I mentioned, it's an understudied population and, uh, it, I think it is, it goes hand in hand with making women understand that not only is it not, not only aren't, they gonna look like a she man from the Amazon, you know, if they resistance training it's gonna help them, they will look more attractive as general. And I mean, of course that is subjective to what people think, but it certainly is not gonna make them look bulky the way that women think it will. And that it has huge health implications. The, uh, addition of muscle. I mentioned some of that earlier. I touched on it. And that particularly for women that, uh, resistance training has, um, my opinion, even more important than for men, because women start out with lower bone density, they have smaller joints in general is an average, uh, they're more prone to osteoporosis, to, uh, more prone towards FRA

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (07:26)
Yeah. Well, heart disease. That's not as much a resistance training. There's some evidence in that, but FRA I'm talking about more from a functionality, uh, standpoint. So, uh, women generally will, because again, if the smaller bone structure and muscle, they're gonna get sarcopenia to a greater degree, which is an atrial related loss of muscle. And anyway, uh, these are, this is a mindset we need to change and that will help to drive more research. You know, one basically it's chicken or the egg, the, uh, egg is the getting women, I think, to understand that, uh, this is beneficial for them. And then we could start driving more research, which again, will cyclically enhance that whole process.

Jennifer: (08:08)
Yeah. That's Def well, thank you. And, um, one of our missions really with this podcast, like is to really speak to that problem and, you know, go in between where the evidence is, what it's telling us and what our Instagram scrolling is telling us. And to be able to meet people in the middle and help them ask better questions and then lead themselves into the right direction. And actually that direction was probably gonna be some of your research. So , that's just, you know, so it's amazing to hear that from, you know, you doing the research in the field, besides your lab, what other labs are doing research on women in training?

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (08:57)
I mean, I don't, I don't know, offhand of a lab, that's focusing on that. There's some, a kind of question called I'd have to think about it, but I mean, a lot of, I know a lot of groups are trying to mm. Uh, but like I said, I, I just guess, uh, based on my knowledge of the literature, we probably have 80% of the hypertrophy work. Uh, I will say that, uh, the last few studies from our lab we've started to integrate men and women because it's difficult for me to get and missed at my school, enough women to carry out a study just on women, but we're integrating where we're carrying out, research that includes both men and women. We're trying to self-analyze. But a lot of times there isn't enough women in the cohort to sub analyze. But what I would say is, is that I think this is probably a good thing from what we, we know there really does not seem to be much difference there a few exceptions in terms of the responses, from women and men. So I, women and men tend to respond fairly, equally similarly to, interesting protocols there. There's a couple of things that have been shown that are, I think have some potential practical importance, including that women seem to recover better. They seem to tolerate more repetitions to a greater extent. So they tend to not to fatigue as quickly as more in the fatigue.

Jennifer: (10:25)
that's yeah. That's an interesting one.

Meredith: (10:28)
Cause they've had to be, I'm just kidding. sorry.

Jennifer: (10:33)
Um, oh my goodness. I saw on your research gate that there was a pilot study with resistance training and like periodizing around the menstrual cycle and it looked like that one, there was not much of a difference in the periodization as well. And that's one of the big myths. One of the big things I see on my Instagram is these posts trying to convince people to like change all of their training based on cycles.

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (11:02)
Yeah. It's a great question. Now, again, that study speaks to the difficulty and becomes even more difficulty in recruiting and it becomes even more difficult with something like that, because trying to there's a lot of problems with trying to set up a study that is based around menstrual psychologist, its methodological issues that make it difficult to carry out that research. But I here's what I can say for this is anecdotal. And I think it needs more research, but I, I was a personal trainer before I became a, uh, a researcher educator for many years. And my experiences is that the differences in response to, uh, how women respond to training during and around their menstrual cycle is extremely varied. Some women have no issues whatsoever and other women have major issues where they would basically not be able to train properly. And I have a lot of, you know, I'm talking about training hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of women.

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (12:01)
So a lot of experience in this area, which again, when you're dealing with small studies, I'm not sure we would get the power to understand these things, to get, to get enough subjects, to really get, the insights into inter individual differences. But that does speak to the fact that I don't think I'm not sure that a research study would probably provide the insights that we're looking for there because ultimately it's gonna come down to the individual. If you are someone who, gets a lot of cramps and just as issues in you're fatigued, uh, during your men, during your period, you probably want program around that. And then for other women who there's no issue whatsoever, there's not an issue. So, um, again, there are certain things I think that there are, there are certainly are obvious limitations to research mm-hmm and we, we need to understand those limitations and not just take that. Well, research says this, so I'm gonna do this research says something, but that's gonna provide you guidelines. And then you have to look at inter individual variability and ultimately everything comes down to programing for the individual.

Jennifer: (13:07)
Yeah. Flipping great point there um, yeah, I saw a lot of variations when I was coaching, uh, women's soccer and doing strength and conditioning with women's soccer and yeah, it just felt like a you're in a ping video

Meredith: (13:21)
Pong yeah. pinball, pinball,

Jennifer: (13:26)
Pinball. Yeah. It was just, you know, they would just have all kinds of different responses and things to say at different times of the week and day and month, it was bringing back some memories there.

Meredith: (13:37)
I think that this is all such great information for people too, right down to, you know, it really comes down to the individual and like anybody who's listening to this should keep that in mind, you can read a research study and you can have information, but that's information that still has to be applied to you as a specific individual.

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (13:54)
Yeah. And I, I, to just further that it certainly number one, it's gonna depend on the topic too, that certain topics are gonna be much less applicable to being able research would have more applicability to certain topics than it would to others. But regardless you always wanna if possible take research as a first line because it's objective, you know, there's a lot of subjectivity in, in terms of, you know, I feel this more or whatever, and that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to give you better results where people could think they're told something by some bro in the gym. And they think that, uh, because bro in the gym who gets really good results is doing it. I'm gonna get good results and they're, there's confirmation bias there, you know, there's a, and a placebo effect. Uh, so we, we need to take the, uh, evidence what we know, but then always in an applied science, such as exercise and nutrition as well is to take that information and then say, all right, uh, how do I, I respond as an individual because virtually every, almost every topic you're gonna see fairly wide inter individual responses.

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (14:59)
And some people are at this part of the curve. Some people are at this part of the curve. And depending upon where you are, that's gonna dictate what you wanna do.

Jennifer: (15:08)
I'd like to move on to this partial range of motion, full range of motion subject. And the paper that I, that we both read through was the 2021 published in the European journal, sports science on knee extension in a partial range of motion, mostly lengthened position, comparing it to a full range of motion, knee extension mm-hmm . And you guys looked at Vastus Lateralis and Rectus Femoris. If, if there was a difference in hypertrophy in those muscles following, like, I don't know, what was it like eight weeks or so of training. I was personally fascinated by this and we just have a lot of, we just have a lot of things and questions about it, but I guess a good way to start is like, what were some of your takeaways from that research?

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (16:04)
Yeah, I think the most important takeaway is that when you train the leg muscle, the quad muscles in a lengthened position, uh, meaning the initial part of the, uh, repetition. So let's say a leg extension, the full repetition is from a hundred degrees. So of knee flexion where your knee is flexed. So here's your knee. This would be like a hundred degrees of knee flexion to full extension, which is zero degrees. So when you're training in the initial phase, which would be, let's say a hundred degrees to four to 50 degrees or so first 50 degrees of range of motion, it has more, uh, anabolic effects. So you will get greater muscle development from doing that part of the rep than if you do the final part of the rep and what actually seems to be that it, at least in the leg extension, uh, at certain points in the muscle, it had even greater effects than doing through a full range of motion.

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (17:00)
Now that doesn't mean you shouldn't necessarily do a full range of motion and you should only focus on that because a I'll give you two things, a number one, it doesn't have to be in either or so you don't people look at a research study and say, we you're looking at this versus that versus this. So if this got better results, I should do this well, that's doesn't necessarily follow that. You only should be doing that. You could do some long length, some stretch position, and then you could do some full range. Uh, there is evidence that training through a full range of motion is optimal for strength gain. So the across the range of motion. So basically strength gains are specific to the range of motion that you train in mm-hmm . So if you're training through a shortened range of motion, you're gonna get your maximal strength gains will be in the range of motion that you're training in.

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (17:47)
And as you're getting to, let's say, say, if you're just doing it in that initial phase, you're not gonna gain as much strength in the lo in the rest of the range of motion. So that in itself, from a functional standpoint, from a, uh, strength related standpoint, you'd wanna do full range. And there can be, like I said, we didn't look at it, but could there be benefits from combining ranges of motion and that, uh, well, we did actually interest, we looked at, this was one of the few studies that looked at a combination. We looked at doing some full range and then some shortened range, and that actually showed really good benefits. And we didn't look at doing some, uh, lengthened range and then full range. So anyway, there's so there's different permutations that can be done. And, uh, I think the evidence that we had certainly showed that a combination may help to optimize hypertrophy.

Meredith: (18:40)
I was just wondering, how did you determine zero degrees of, or sorry, a hundred degrees of knee flexion to 30 degrees of knee flexion. Why didn't you assuming that the participants were able to go to full extension? Why wasn't that included? Why did it stop at 30 degrees of knee flexion?

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (18:58)
You know, I don't, it's been a while, so it's been two years since we actually got that published. I don't remember. Did we not go to zero? I thought we did go to zero.

Meredith: (19:05)
I think it went the, the, the final range of motion was 65 to 30. And I was just wondering, cuz if somebody had more knee flexion than a hundred degrees, if you're trying to assess like the lengthened position, I just didn't know if there was a, you know, and these were untrained subjects, I, if, to my understanding, so correct. Maybe you wouldn't want them to go through that range. Maybe those ranges are a little more like precarious,

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (19:26)
You know, I don't recall. I, I mean, I, I remember I was just curious on the initial, uh, discussion about that. Uh, so I collaborated with a group in Brazil okay. On that study. And, uh, I, I don't recall when we had discussed the methods, why that was the case. I'd have to go back

Meredith: (19:43)
That's okay. I just curious. Yeah. Thank

Jennifer: (19:45)
You. And I saw something you posted today with a tricep medial and lateral head, and I think this kind of, it was, it was interesting cuz um, there was hypertrophy gains found throughout both heads, even though it was trained at the lengthened position. Is that correct?

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (20:06)
Well, yeah, so the study looked at doing an overhead tricep extension where basically the arm is elevated and you're do an extension that way versus a, like a push down where the elbows are at your sides. And it was really interesting. It was a very study out of Japan, really fascinating finding. So, uh, I don't know how much geeky science that you wanted to go into, but when they,

Jennifer: (20:30)
We love it. Yeah.

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (20:32)
There's um, there's a force length curve, uh, a length tension curve and there's something called the ascending limb and the descending limb when the sarcomeres work on, what's called the descending limb of that strength curve, which is in the stretch. It benefits from training in a stretch position, essentially mm-hmm when it works on the ascending limb, the initial, uh, part, it, it would seemingly not. But interestingly the, the long head of the triceps works on the descending limb. So it makes sense that that would have beneficial hypertrophic effects in the overhead extension. And that did it did show better results in the overhead extension versus the push down. However, it also showed better results for the other two tricep heads as well, which was unexpected. We would've expected really no difference because it's working on the ascending limb, thus seemingly wouldn't benefit from the stretch there we could.

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (21:25)
And there was no mechanistic data done to really try to find out why there could be physiological factors. I think the authors speculated there may be more metabolic stress involved could be greater hypoxia. We we're just not sure, but it was just really interesting. And I think the takeaway, which I did post on my Instagram page, people can check that out if they want. But my what, what I would say the biggest take home is is that the overhead tricep extension, it should be an essential exercise in someone's routine. If their goal is to maximize muscle hypertrophy. Now, with that said both, it doesn't mean that you don't get hypertrophy of the, uh, you know, long head and the lateral media heads with a pushdown. It was just, uh, greater. The hypertrophy was greater with the overhead extension in all three heads of the triceps.

Meredith: (22:16)
Well, couldn't it be that the long head of the tricep is in a more lengthened position when we're here versus here where it may be more, have more slack because of it being a two joint muscle, so that maybe the lateral needle had, could be in a better position to like make that motion happen. Maybe I, I

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (22:33)
Dunno, no, that, that is a, I, I believe the author is speculated. That might be the case too, but that also goes against the fact that the there's greater hypertrophy in the Longhead as well. Okay. So if the Longhead is, is not being able to carry out as much action, then why did it get greater hyper? Gotcha. Perhaps that could be attributed to the passive elements again. Now we're getting to real geeky speculation, uh, which I'm not sure you wanna do, but, but that

Meredith: (23:00)
Is, but it's really interesting. It's

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (23:02)
Interesting. I think a, a possible theory or possible hypothesis that can be further

Meredith: (23:08)
You're in New York city person, Brad. And so I was just curious, do you have a favorite gym to work out in when you're in New York city?

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (23:15)
Well, I work at it, uh, so I'm in Westchester county. I work at it in, at an time fitness. I'm not, I'm not in the city, but, uh, when I gotcha when I go to the city, there are several gyms that, uh, that I have trained at since COVID, I kind of, I, I used to kind of go into the city and just would no, no colleagues of mine. I haven't done that. Uh, so I kind of am staying local now.

Meredith: (23:39)
Yeah. Okay.

Jennifer: (23:40)
So yeah, the last question, like what, anything from nineties fitness culture that inspired you or still inspires you at, at all? Is, is there

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (23:51)
Abso I mean, so I'm a product of that, uh, ear in terms of my body building, I started out as a Jim bro who, uh, followed all the body building routines and I was inspired by the physiques of my favorite body builders back then starting with Frank Z of course, Arnold Schwartzenegger and, uh, progressing into, especially the nineties where we had, uh, I don't know this probably certainly before your time, but re Lata and Sean Ray and, and other, uh, bodybuilders from that era, uh, Fran Swabb and Fado. So, uh, yeah, they, they actually were who, uh, were my heroes back then, and I still remember, uh, subscribing to like muscle and fitness effects, magazines, and getting it delivered in the mail. And I couldn't wait to run out and rip open the plastic that it was packed, eating routine. So, uh, yeah, look, I've, uh, one of my focuses, obviously as a researcher educator is to take the bro science, if you will, things that the, uh, Jim bros are preaching and then put it into practice. But I I'll say this too. There's a lot of stuff. When, when bodybuilders don't get big, I mean, there are certain things, they have genetics, they do other things too, uh, or sometimes, but, um, but, uh, they also know how to train. There's a lot to be said. So, uh, people who dismiss what body builders do I think are really missing the boat. Mm-hmm

Meredith: (25:13)
yeah. I agree with that

Jennifer: (25:14)
For sure. Yes. That's one of our, that's one of our favorite things to talk about. So thank you for being a person of real influence and evidence and just it stature and this crazy industry. We totally appreciate you being here and appreciate you being you for

Meredith: (25:30)
Championing. Uh, women's research too. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah,

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (25:33)
It's my, my pleasure. Hopefully will do it again sometime.

Jennifer: (25:36)
All right. Fabulous. Thank you.

Brad Schoenfeld, PhD: (25:37)
Take care.

Speaker 5: (25:39)
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Jennifer: (26:40)
Okay. We're back after a little breaky break. Congrats on getting through that team. Good job.

Meredith: (26:45)
Yes. Go team. That was so fun though. So interesting and insightful in so many ways.

Jennifer: (26:50)
I know. I mean, and we didn't have to pay grad school tuition to get

Meredith: (26:55)
Front row that's

Jennifer: (27:00)
I'd like to point out that Mr. Schoenfeld did not like register. He kind of inferred that we were kind of young, which

Meredith: (27:10)
Is, oh,

Jennifer: (27:11)
I wanna attribute that to hypertrophy.

Meredith: (27:14)
I, I, you know, I, I do think that like, exercise is like a magic pill. It's the closest thing we have to a fountain of youth. That in like decent eating, like not even like great eating, like just decent, just decent, but like, if you have a regular exercise program I just, you know, I, I think we're around so many people that work out regularly. Right. And I just, um, I think it's makes a huge difference.

Jennifer: (27:39)

Meredith: (27:39)
if you're trying to, you know, stay young as long as possible, like

Jennifer: (27:43)
Helps. Yeah. I mean, there's definitely a difference between my classmate high school classmate. Let's say who's been smoking cigarettes for 20 years and I've been putting time in the gym for 20 years. Like, there's a difference, like that's for sure. So I'll die on that hill. If anybody wants to come at me, that's fine. Yeah. Just said it.

Meredith: (28:03)
No, I, I absolutely agree with you. I think it is.

Jennifer: (28:07)
All right. We know what hill we're gonna die on. Cool. Yeah.

Meredith: (28:12)
That's one that might be, there might be more Hills, but that's one of them.

Jennifer: (28:16)
That's one of them.

Meredith: (28:17)

Jennifer: (28:18)
Um, any hoo. Okay. Back to range of motion.

Meredith: (28:22)
Yeah. Let's talk about that.

Jennifer: (28:24)
So what comes up for me, like in the internet space of range of motion. Yeah. Is I think of, um, people like the polarity there's, there's always a polarity when it comes to internet, there's the trainers who are gonna the very bro science forward trainers who are gonna say, you have to go full range, you know, especially in the like strength and conditioning area, like have to train, you have to train the full range. And there's really not much exception. So that's one thing. Yeah. One polar one pole and then the other pole is I'm thinking of like barre and, um,

Meredith: (29:05)
Oh, yeah.

Jennifer: (29:06)
Where it's like, like a lot of tiny range of motion.

Meredith: (29:08)
Sure. Yeah. Um, the glorification of like the baby burn, the baby burn. Yeah. Which I is also very cool too. I mean, I'm

Jennifer: (29:22)
A fan of the pump. I get it.

Meredith: (29:23)
Well, I know. Right, right. Those little, like, but to your point, pole and pole and then like, what do we have all the way in between that? And like, does it have to be one or the other or can it be all of it and can like that be,

Jennifer: (29:37)
So I'm gonna put our version of it in the, the care bear sphere.

Meredith: (29:41)
Oh, , here's our Northeast program. That is, is that yeah. Like I,

Jennifer: (29:48)
I think it's eighties,

Meredith: (29:48)
Eighties, and then it, but then it came back again. It's coming back, I think in like 2017 or something.

Jennifer: (29:54)
Um, so yeah, the math there, it works out. Um,

Meredith: (29:57)
It works out

Jennifer: (29:59)
So then our, our version of it is the care bear version where it's like, it all fits into something and yes, it's, it's, there's a sequencing and there's a, you know, there's, there's a rationale and you can come up with a rationale for all like different ranges at different times.

Meredith: (30:16)
Yes, absolutely.

Jennifer: (30:18)
Yeah. So yeah. I'm gonna leave my care bear image, but I

Meredith: (30:23)

Jennifer: (30:24)
That it's ex it's it's it's above it's exalted.

Meredith: (30:27)
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's like an umbrella like that. Like, like, like casting is glory on all of us, if should we choose to once.

Jennifer: (30:36)
So now we're coming down to the earth to give you guys the info about training, different ranges of motion, not just full, not just partial and, um, you know, just like sprinkle that goodness on you guys. It's it's, I mean, it is pretty exciting when you, when I can get into a zone and it takes a little bit of creativity and trust and finding different ranges within one setup of an exercise. That's kind of where I like to do it for myself. And I also like to do it for clients, um, helping, I don't do anything for my clients, but like helping them configure a set where they can use a minimal setup and use different ranges to create muscle tension in different ranges, basically in different positions. So yeah. What are your thoughts on that?

Meredith: (31:36)
Yeah, well, I love that. I love that Brad's research was showing that there is absolutely benefit to training in different ranges that, you know, if you're looking at hypertrophy only mm-hmm then maybe there's this, maybe there's this benefit to training in a lengthened position, but from a strength perspective, training through the, a specific range yields, more strength in that specific range. So if you're only training at one end or, you know, the lengthened end or the shorten end, you're gonna get stronger in the lengthened end or the shorten end mm-hmm . So, so, you know, and if you're training full range of motion, like that's cool, like exploring all of those things is beneficial for something, you know, whether it's strength, hypertrophy, sensation, learning, like how to, um, control the weight through different. I, I think there's so much that goes beyond just strength and hypertrophy, even though those are like a lot of the, you know, two main goals that people come in with, but there are just so many other factors in terms of like the ability to sense and like, and control and, and, and empower feeling empowered.

Meredith: (32:43)
Like I know that I am in control of this weight at all, you know? So, um, there's so much to that. And I also though, and we had talked about this the other day, it brings up for me, we haven't really gotten into this too much in the podcast yet. I don't think mm-hmm , but like, um, we have in certain episodes, but having a good machine that allows you to explore different ranges in a way that makes sense. So like you and I were talking about like booty bands mm-hmm and like, sometimes that won't even like, you're, you're, you're set with this particular tool that only, depending on its resistance, depending on its tension only allows you, it doesn't even allow you to explore maybe. So, so you'd almost have to have multiple resistances with multiple tensions to work with to even like get to a lengthened range or, or like a really shortened range mm-hmm and then an appropriate tension for something that is more lengthened.

Meredith: (33:48)
So it then be knowing what tools you have available to you and how you would, like you said, like with minimal setup, mm-hmm or minimal learning how one machine could benefit you and one particular range and another machine might benefit you more in a different range. Those things come up for me. Mm-hmm . And also when we're talking about full range of motion, like what that means to people, because, you know, like, I'm sure we've mentioned before, like, do you have to squat all the way to the ground? And like, what are we really challenging then? Like what if, if I'm moving

Jennifer: (34:20)

Meredith: (34:22)
Well, right, right. Like, but I'm no longer it just there like so many different , but no, but there are so many different things that come up, you know, with this full range, partial range thing. And I just think, I love that we started exploring it with this piece of research because it is a great like entry point into that topic that I think is a really, could be a really huge topic.

Jennifer: (34:49)
I think if we're gonna get anywhere with that topic, I think getting a really good, solid definition of lengthened stretch. Right. Ecentric under the what, I mean, what do you tell your clients and do they ask about eccentrics or do, or, you know what I mean? Like, how do you explain it to your students in the app? Like what, you know what I mean?

Meredith: (35:12)
I don't really use, unless somebody would bring it up, but yeah, I don't really, you know, I might talk about like controlling it on the way down, or like really trying to reach all the way to the floor if it's like, cuz like you, I'm sure you experience that people kind of across the board, like we all tend to cheat in the same ways mm-hmm and so like the, the same issues can come up time and time again for, for people like, uh, like if you're really trying to explore like a full range, like where are you stopping short or how are you getting there? Or like, um, do, do we want to increase the load in the eccentric phase because it can, we could, or like what benefit could that have or what risk could that have depending on who the client is? Um, well how about you? What do you, I mean, cuz I do think it would be really important to define cuz those things mean different things to me eccentric and, and stretch.

Jennifer: (36:01)
Yeah. It came up that proposition, like we need to like better define these things came up as I was fielding our, my Instagram audience and our podcast audience on, on this particular guest. Okay. Because he's doing some of his research in, you know, intra set. Yeah. Intra set, stretching, right. And hypertrophy. Right. And eccentrics and hypertrophy kind of go hand in hand. So, you know, that came up a lot, uh, with different people and some not in our like direct M a T like rots community types. Like it was, it, it was on other people's minds as well.

Meredith: (36:44)
Um, was the question more like about him defining those things? Or was it more about like what does, or the potential risk of what, what, what were the questions kind of in relation to

Jennifer: (36:56)
Yeah, cuz sometimes, um, it's really just generically used like a stretch in between sets like, you know, can we better just like dive into that? Like what does it mean?

Meredith: (37:05)
What yeah. What, what would that look like?

Jennifer: (37:06)
And yeah. And then someone in like more like the M a T community kind of said, yeah, like there's a potential benefit to the interset stretching and hypertrophy, but what are the potential risk there too? Yes. It made me think about fitness for consumption. Who's had David BA on who has done multiple research studies on elongated stretching sessions.

Meredith: (37:37)

Jennifer: (37:38)
Right. And neurophysiology. And it there's just so many different comp like pieces. I don't wanna say complain. Yeah. With li little pieces to our words and how we execute and exercise or give somebody instruction to execute and exercise. And that's really what comes up for me. It's like, um, but the other thing that came up for me is thinking about range of motion and something as common as a deadlift.

Meredith: (38:06)

Jennifer: (38:07)
And RA, this is wrapped up into this conversation. I would, you know, I'd go, I, I, a blanket statement for me on that is like a lot of people blow through their hip extension hamstring range of motion and then done with sure. And, um, so what's their goal. Right. And if it's to keep tension on the hamstrings and keep training on the next co week, right. Why aren't we promoting more partial range of motion in that case for safety.

Meredith: (38:39)
Yeah. So, well, and that's what I, yeah. What comes up for me when I was talking about the squat thing earlier, it's like, well, what did you, did you wanna go into like lumbar flexion? Did you want, I mean, did you want that to be like the main thing that got you down to the floor mm-hmm like, is that, and then

Jennifer: (38:54)
Posterior pelvic tilts,

Meredith: (38:56)
Squat squats, like, um, right. I mean, but, but, but the thing with like, with squats or with deadlifts specifically, like if you are training for a competition, you have to lift that weight off the floor. Like you can't do a partials, you know what I mean? So it's like, yes, if you're trying to keep the tension on the hamstrings or the glutes, or like where, wherever you're trying to, whatever form you're trying to maintain. But I think for a lot of people they could be legitimately like training for the purpose of competing.

Jennifer: (39:25)
Yeah. Well I'll, I, I think like I'll indulge me and you, and maybe the audience on just like what I did for my quads today, which was different ranges of motion within the same setup and shout out to DMV iron. Um,

Meredith: (39:42)
I need to come work out with

Jennifer: (39:43)
You there, man. It's a, it's such a great playground because that, that kind of setup can show you, you can devise a whole set of, you know, I can focus on the shortened range. I can focus on the LinkedIn range. I can focus on the mid-range and maybe I can do all three. And some of those machines, like that's, what I do is I try to do, I try to do two to three different ranges within my time with that machine in one, in one workout. So I did that today. I did a, my squat. He, they even have a safety squat bar, which is like, awesome. And I bring my 10 degree prime wedges.

Meredith: (40:31)
Nice, nice, awesome. Okay.

Jennifer: (40:33)
Cause the ones I have there are like, yeah, it looks like a sliding board.

Meredith: (40:38)
Yeah. Well, I, I want the sliding board one. Well, you know what I'm doing, but, but yeah, no, I, I, so a gym that I just started working out at, they have wedges, but they're, they're separate. Yeah. So I get really nervous about like backing up onto them. Cause I'm like, what if I, what if I miss the wedge? You know, like I like the ones that are like a little bit like just one piece, so you can just have a little more like yeah. Wiggle

Jennifer: (40:59)
Room for, so yeah. I think they pieced them out. That's cool for kind of split squats, that type of setup. Okay. That's cool. I think that's really what it's for. Um, because you're right. It is a little dangerous but maybe you're stepping back on two. Yeah,

Meredith: (41:15)
Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, that

Jennifer: (41:17)
Makes sense. I could, yeah, I don't want that to go wrong. So I set that up um, and 10 degrees is great for me. I don't need anymore. Yeah. So for that, I'm getting a quad stretch for sure. Like I'm getting right. Um, and I'm starting my workout with that, you know, lengthened, which is not something I would have done a couple years ago. Like I've had to earn my right. Yes. My, my range. Let's say I earned my range. I got my badge. Maybe we could start at girl scout

Meredith: (41:48)
For we'll start giving away peach, but badges. Yeah.

Jennifer: (41:52)
Yes. Um, I earned my badge in range of motion for squats and that took some time for me at that. So what that means is, you know, going into something lengthened at the hip and the knee, you know, it's, it's, it's a lot, it's a big demand. And I had to make sure for me that it was safe and now it is, and now I can recover from it and it feels good. So I have that going for my first exercise and I paired that with interest set isometrics. Hmm. And that's using just the same setup. Right. I have my, I have my squat rack and there's plenty of things to push on for an isometric there. So I did a, I did, um, hip flexion, I guess, or yeah. A rec fem type of isometric and then on the ladder half, cuz this is a long set. So I'm going about six sets in this squat rack. Okay. And um, for 10 reps and it gets my heart pounding and I get sweaty,

Meredith: (42:56)
It gets

Jennifer: (42:57)
. Um, and, and then the, the latter half of that, I did Glu isometrics, standing, pushing against the one of the arms or the cage arms. And then I Mosi on over to the prime leg extension, which has, you know, multiple different cams and multiple different loading points. So I did one set at more of like a mid-range focus. And I was kind of tired after that. I did three sets of that. And then I did two sets at lengthened, which would be more like Brad's, uh, research where I was at close. What would I think would be close to a hundred degrees and you know what, what's the max knee flex I would start in. That would probably be it for me, especially after doing those squats. Yeah. Are you guys liking this play by play by the way?

Meredith: (43:57)
I feel like you should have like a board, like one of like, like, like the football board thing.

Jennifer: (44:02)
Yeah, yeah. For the players. Uh, and then I finished off with, it's like a standing hip machine where you have different settings and I, what do people, what do people call that? A circumduction a multi call.

Meredith: (44:15)
The multi I don't, I don't know that. Yeah. But that's

Jennifer: (44:17)
What I've heard it called before. So yeah. It looks like, yeah, it, it doesn't look like any other machine in the gym. It looks like something, it might be more in like you would prop up on a, for a mechanic or something. It doesn't look like, you know what I mean? It doesn't have like a traditional gym machine look. It has like a standing area. And, and I did hip flexion on that and I love getting hip flex. I, I love, I love working out hip flexion, so that's a whole nother episode. And then, and then I did some, um, no weight didn't need anything at this point. So just some walking lunges on the turf. Yeah. Right.

Meredith: (44:56)

Jennifer: (44:56)
bye-bye that was it. home to feed the dog. And that was it. It was a great workout. So my point is we're talking about three different setups, one with body weight. And in two of those setups, I was using different schemes of range of motion to get what I wanted done. I could go on, I posted something on Instagram with the row the other day mm-hmm . And I do this with lap pull downs as well, where I just change my body position a little bit just to line things up a little differently. And I think it feels great, you know? Um, and I, again, I've had to earn that as well. My badge in upper body endurance and like forearm endurance yeah. Um, for sure, like has come a long way. So there's my badge and you know, I, I, and I definitely would encourage, so I train with a friend, sometimes her name's Nicole, shout out. She definitely listens to our episodes and call and I encourage, you know, uh, both of us to like explore different ranges and it's, you know, it's really fun with the upper and lower body doesn't, you know, need to be like in research, like always, like he was talking about the tricep and the quads. I, there's not a whole, it's hard to study a lot of, you know, these, some of the bigger, even some of the bigger muscles, like hamstring, it's like, you know, yeah. Poof. So anyways, that's my, uh, playbook like, well,

Meredith: (46:31)
What I, what I, I love your play by play and what I, uh, what really came up for me through it, you know, I, um, occasionally will have people ask, like, how do you keep it from being boring? Like, what do you do when you don't have motivation? Or like, what do you do? Like when it just feels so like repetitive and rote and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, huh, what, what? But like, but like, but that, but to me, that's, that's what it is. Right. It's like being curious about all of those different pieces. It, I mean, not, it could be, you could just do focusing on different ranges of motion and like changing it up in some way, shape or form, but like exploring all of those things, like is really like what K because, because it keeps you engaged and not just like, starting to think about your grocery list or whatever, like then like, well, it would be boring if you're just like going through some motions and like I'm doing what they told me to do in the magazine and blah, blah, blah.

Meredith: (47:22)
And like, whatever. It's like, that's what to me makes all of this. Like, something that I do wanna return to on a regular basis is that it is I'm finding each day what this is gonna feel like, and I'm exploring a new range or like not a new range, but like a range differently. Or like, like, you know what, this one feels really good today. Let me just stay here and let me just like really try to engage and connect to this thing. And like maybe another day, it's like, man, you know, I just wanna like go, I just wanna like get through like, not get through it, but like move like full range. I just wanna, you know, um, so I that's what I, I think it, if, if you're feeling like your workout ha is, is like the same every single day, like start to see like maybe ways that you could change it up and maybe exploring different parts of the range of motion is, is a way to like enter into that.

Jennifer: (48:08)
Mm yeah. So, yeah, I think so. That's, I think that's one of my big takeaways for the audience. I mean, I think, you know, the big takeaway for this episode was really like, I wanted to have fun with this and learn, and, you know, you all were just volunteering to watch that. That's what part of my perspective was on this. But I think the big takeaway of like, you're one of my clients, or you're someone just in that boat where you are looking for more connection and more fun in your exercise, specifically resistance training and strength training is yeah. Being able to explore and have a safe place to do it is like, just so incredibly rewarding. And you know, if you have any questions about that, I know I would love to hear from you. I'm sure you'd be open to talk chit chatting to anyone about that. Cause those questions are so fun to watch somebody go through that change of, wow. I really love taking care of my body. Yeah. From, it was a chore

Meredith: (49:18)
Right before. Oh my goodness. Yeah,

Jennifer: (49:20)
Yeah. Yeah. So we're here to empower y'all that's absolutely. That's the takeaway. So we got our nineties fix. I feel like, yes. Yes I did.

Meredith: (49:32)
cause I don't wanna be on the spot for my .

Jennifer: (49:35)
Yeah, I know. But I would love to know what the audience wants to hear about cuz we've talked about so many little things in the nineties, but there are some hidden icons that we haven't talked about. Like the bicycle hats with the fucking thing that would flip the, the, the front part that flip

Meredith: (49:52)
Up, come up with I I'm just obsess obsessed with the, I like exhausted my nineties references like three episodes ago. no, I need to go back and explore the nineties a little bit more. I think I like, I blocked it out well,

Jennifer: (50:05)
Yeah, you teased me because you said you may have kept some magazines, so I'm still oh,

Meredith: (50:09)
I know. And now I'm

Jennifer: (50:11)
Totally my,

So let me, let me, I know. Let me see. I'm sure that they're somewhere. I, okay. I'm

Gonna work on that. I'm so you guys wanna be like the best like peach pit care bear student, girl scout. Bring, send us some magazines from the nineties specifically with yes. If you have any like YM or like, like what was the, oh God, what did I just see? One the other day? I can remember what it was. Well, movie Claire's been yeah. Starts with sassy, sassy, sassy. Oh my God. SAS sassy. I can remember sassy. Yes. If you have any of these mens young, young was there like young, I don't know, young mess or something. I dunno. Yeah. Um, the other or like any, uh, like pop culture references that involved exercise, like my inspiration for, uh, designing the show theme. Uh, our theme song for this show was with my friend, Darren and I sent him the fly girls. Mm. Right, right, right.

And I feel like, like, that's not exactly a fitness reference, but JLo's involved. Oh my gosh. Bike shorts are involved. Dance, fitness, dance. Fitness is involved. Yeah. So yeah, I take that back. So plus it's just like upbeat and awesome. Yes. I've been awesome. And it's like, it had, I think it was just so cool because it just had this like sporty vibe and not, not like outwardly sexual vibe and it highlighted like some real creativity and choreography versus what a lot of other things around that time we're doing, which was like hyper, you know, it was like a lot of hypersexualization. And so it just, you know, it just, I thought, I thought it was really cool in that way and yeah. And, and I like really colorful things as well. So that, that hits all the marks for me. I think it's an excellent choice.

Yeah. so any of you thought something there we'd love DM, send us an email. I'll send you the studio address. You can send it right there. And I think that's a wrap and that was a fucking great show for our first one. After our little break. Yeah. I really had fun. It was so insightful and so nice of Brad to be here and yeah. I love always talking to you. So yes, always. Oh my gosh. Well happy summer. Happy lots of flowers and sunshine to you might be and happy full moon. Oh yeah. That's today. Mm mm-hmm yeah, I got I got plans for you. Full moon um, and yeah. And, you know, thanks for being here guys, and gals and y'all and yeah, we'd love to hear from you. Bye bye. Take care.

Speaker 1
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